I enjoyed the event and your session. Thanks for the iHome!

This is reasonable to my way of thinking. Podcasting is becoming a valuable business tool, as well as a cool hobby. It only makes sense that learning about it will be a bit of an investment.

However, I wouldn't want to pay a large sum to attend PodCamp, and I think it should remain free for those interested in Podcasting for the sake of Podcasting itself.

Was there any talk of maybe offering a "premium" or "business" package, in which you're given access to advanced sessions, "gift' bags, more focused social events and the like?

If there's no free component for hobbyists, beginners and those just sniffing around, I think you might lose an integral swatch of the podcast community.

Absolutely. A nominal fee (maybe $20) would reduce the no-shows considerably.

That's a shame, this closes the gap between the uniqueness of a podcamp and yet another conference. Having had some involvement for to years with PodcastconUK, I can totally understand the need for some financial security/buffer in the creation of an event. Barcamps do not seem to have quite the same problem, however, but perhaps that is a sign of the direction podcasting is heading - i.e. away from the geeks.

Well, it's safe to say it's a conference and no longer a camp, like Barcamps. Which is fine, I guess. Just as long as we're clear on that.

How about following Radiohead's example and letting people decide how much they'll pay to come to a podcamp? This would give you a much better sense of who's likely to come--someone who pays zero less likely than someone who pays $100, for example. And you'd still have a strong claim on the -camp moniker, which as Eric Rice just Tweeted, perhaps gets problematic if you're charging just like other conferences, even if way cheaper.

Isn't the whole idea of podcamp that it is a unconference. That people start adhock panels and speeches, that everything is as little planned as possible, to encourage creativity and involvement of the general podcasters. Not to flyin the hotshots to tell how it should be done. ???

Why not start a spinoff where there is more structure, and have a admission fee to pay for the hotshot. Call it PodCon, could still be cool and fun just different then camp.

(post didn't show up, trying again)

How about following Radiohead experiment and letting people decide how much they're willing to pay for Podcamp? This would give better sense of who's coming ($100 payer more likely to come than zero payer, for example). You'd still have good claim on "camp" name, which gets problematic, as Eric Rice just Tweeted, if you are charging a fee like other conferences, even if way cheaper.

No one that I have heard has talked about using this change to make money. In every case I have heard it would be a nominal fee ($20 seemed to be the popular one going around) just to establish a level of commitment when registering, but low enough that anyone could afford it.

This is not about creating a barrier between someone's desire in attending and actually being able to. It is simply a way to help alleviate some of the major logistical problems that have been arising at these events as they grow in size.

Hopefully some people who took part in the "circle discussion" in Boston will chime in. I was not able to as I was speaking on another panel.

Last night I posted about my great experience at PodCamp on Saturday; unfortunately a family obligation kept me away Sunday.

One of the things I wrote about was the challenge for organizers of free unconferences to gauge the conversion from registration to attendance because so many factors depend on this metric. Leading up to PodCamp there were reports that it sold out but in the end, from my experience in organizing conferences, I estimated that approximately half of the early registrations turned up.

Free unconferences are solely due to generous sponsors and one of the factors that determine if they will sponsor and how much they invest is based on how many people will attend. Obviously organizers need to make sure that they deliver on these expectations or sponsors will be reluctant to provide support in the future.

With respect to speakers not showing, one of the good things about the unconference structure is its flexibility and ready supply of eager presenters. You guys did a great job in keeping the flow on the day I attended.

A small registration fee would help the conversion rate by making people commit to attending. It's too easy to find something else to do when you haven't paid to attend. If possible the fee should be small because people can have significant travel and lodging expenses to attend.

Most importanly, you guys did an amazing job. I was unable to attend last year but I sent one of my employees. From all reports the growth from year 1 to year 2 was phenomenal. Congratulations to all of the organizers, sponsors and volunteers for a great event. I learned alot and had fun! I'm already looking forward to PodCamp Boston 3 and would be willing to pay a registration fee to participate.

Congratulations and thanks!

Anyway, whatever happens with this issue, I had a really, really good time, learned a lot. Participated in all kinds of impromptu "unconferency" stuff and basically rocked out with lots of fun folks.

If you're thinking that charging $20 to attend would somehow negate the community, geeky, grassroots or unconference aspects, you're completely off base. being FREE isn't what defines the spirit of Podcamp, it's about the free exchange of ideas, and the open spirit in which people who have learned things give their knowledge away to others.

When you went to summer camp, it cost money. They have to have food, a cabin, and it costs money to put it on. Paying a small fee is just the reality of life.

The geeky aspects being lost by charging? I think not. Do you expect to get into ComicCon for free?

And again, the main reason for charging money: commitment.

More than 1300 people signed up, but I didn't see 1300 people here. If they'd paid $20, perhaps the signups woud have been less, but more realistic, and the people who paid would have been much more likely to actually show up.

And my personal thoughts and suggestion was to take any registration money and donate it ALL to a charity because I don't want to see it become a source of income.

I also hope that there still will be plenty of free events, but I like that the option is there. I'm trying to figure out how and when to make a PodCamp happen in the Upper Valley of New Hampshire where I grew up. All stems from Eric Rice's post several months ago about small town camps with none of the usual suspects there. I'd love to make that happen and hope more people do it. Hyper local new media spreading where people who have never heard of any of this come out, learn, create and get exposed. Building the community bigger and broader.

Just my 2 cents.

Also, it's important to note that this is a removal of a mandatory rule. Organizers are not REQUIRED to charge money, but they are given the option to do so. Organizers may keep their local PodCamp perfectly free.

We're thinking of issuing a recommendation for the nominal fee, like an indexed price. For example, go to the local coffee shop, find the most expensive beverage on the menu, and make the maximum price you may charge 5x that drink, etc.

If it's gonna be Podshow 2.0, it's gonna be Podshow 2.0. Just sayin'.

Eric - how in the world is this even close to PodShow? I'm so confused by that statement

If it has value for the attendee then they should be willing to pay a little something. And I agree that a small fee as a "commitment test" would help ensure people turn up. Also, as much as I like the free and easy, creativity encouraging style of these events, the one I attended in the UK left me frustrated in some ways. The lack of a visible schedule with someone managing it meant that there were sessions advertised that I really wanted to see but they either didn't happen or moved to another time and I couldn't find out. I missed stuff that I wanted to see because there was too *little* organisation. A happy medium would suit me better at least.

Welcome to the conference world guys. Just know that from my experience, the moment you charge a single dollar, people's expectations of what the conference should be change dramatically. There's something about paying for an event that changes the mindset of people involved. Yes you may get greater turnout, but you also get greater expectations of what should be included for that dollar - and often those expectations don't match with what the organizer can realistically provide. I've done free events and I've done paid events and regardless of the cost, they both have very different vibes.

I'm not sure $20 is going to create enough commitment to achieve the goal there.

I agree with Tim and Eric that Podcamp will be a regular conference and should drop the camp tag unless it remains free like BarCamp. Nothing wrong with that, just be clear about it. Possibly the larger conferences like Boston or New York will have to be paid because of their size and logistical complications. But, as CC is looking to do, much smaller local and free camps should be encouraged more. It doesn't always have to be a mega event. Some of the organizing ideas we are talking about for the future of the Orange County Podcasters group sound alot like a mini podcamp every month and I like that.

Great point Tim. But there's also that old rule that the less someone pays the more they complain. I don't know if that rule applies to free vs. nominal price the way it does for the gap between $100 and $10,000, but again, I go back to the thought that it would get the registration vs attendee #'s in line realistically, and enable organizers to cover actual real world costs of putting on a conference.

There are many old adages that go 'those who do not learn from history's mistakes run the risk of repeating them.'

I do not question the value of people getting together and learning and bonding; I do not question the value the newcomers get from the veterans. My initial issues are born from the lineage of FOOcamp spawning Barcamps spawning *camps, and the celebration of the accessibility and 'unconferenced' nature of the -camps.

It wasn't until I was personally asked "Are you going to PodcampNYC?" to which my answer was, "No, of course not. Why would I?" That was the early warning sign that a Podcamp might be heading down a path and away from the unconference '--camp' model. As time went on, it seemed that less and less of the '-camp' model existed, as more and more people began to treat the -camp as a conference.

Naturally, it's no surprise that monetization is a topic as a new expectation has been set ('no shows' being an issue).

When I worked on a Barcamp in Second Life, I had yet to go to an actual Baracmp. I explicitly remember stressing about maintaining the ideals of the Barcamp and made sure that my wife, who was still new to building virtual clothes, got up and helped everyone make their own t-shirts. Later, when I stumbled into the middle of a Barcamp in San Francisco, Microsoft had opened their offices to a pack of geeks-- pizza boxes and whiteboards everywhere, filled with working, talking, sleeping, helping-- over the course of two days.

For those that remember the early days of podcasting, we remember that fateful morning when we woke up and the community podcast directory suddenly had a nice fat Copyright at the bottom, from the creators of Podshow, which was the first in a long line of WTF?s that came from Curry and Bloom, Inc.

I'm not surprised that the vibe of PNME was tepid, as many folks had traveled so far to Podcamps here and there. Why would PNME be any different, save for the expo floor?

Sadly, I'm resigned to the idea that we'll wake up one morning and see that Podcamp, Inc will exist, probably as some VON thing or something similar. It will be a conference--a successful one, make no mistake-- that will have strayed from its roots as something democratic, where we celebrate the power of democratization of media and lowered barriers to entry, and not just another promotional showcase for our brands.

I have faith, sorta.

While I understand trying to off-set expenses, paying cost and being more flexible I do hope that Podcamp stays non-profit.

A nominal fee like $20 isn't going to stop many people from coming. I paid several hundred dollars in hotel, travel and food to be at PodCampBoston, and some spent a lot more. But I wouldn't overestimate its effect on stopping no shows. If something even semi-important comes up in your life, you're not going to lose any sleep over giving up $20. It seems to me, though, that the more important and guaranteed result will be advance money to book space and services. As far as handling pre-reg. fees, won't something like EventBrite help a lot with that?

I heartily agree with the comment about PodCamps not being about "free". I think "non-profit" says it better. When the profit motive enters, you leave Camp space, and enter Conference space.

Another thing to consider is whether a PodCamp is inherently a small thing. Personally, I don't think a PodCamp with 3000 people is a PodCamp experience anymore. For me, it's about meeting friends and making new ones. This year it was still possible to feel that you knew most of the people there. That closeness of personal interaction, spirit of volunteerism, and egalitarianism doesn't translate easily, if at all, to larger groups. Maybe it shouldn't be a goal to make PodCamps as big as possible. In my mind, a lot of little PodCamps might be better than a few too-big ones.

Podcamp is an idea, not a company. It can't be co-opted any more than barcamp could. Even if Chris & Chris suddenly turned evil and tried, the community would instead continue to create it's own events, and rebel against it. Making our own chance to get together, share knowledge, and celebrate each other is what this is all about in the first place.

Jeff and VON gave a ton and asked very little for podcamp boston, and they don't deserve to have it implied that they're trying to take over or co-opt our event. You could say the same about microsoft at the SF barcamp you keep holding up as the gold example.

Aside from that, everything that the podcamp founders has done has been to set the original spirit and ideals into set rules so that the event won't go down the path you're worried about.

No one is going to tell people who can and can't speak, who can and can't come. Isn't that the core of it? The rest is organizational details.

Eric, there are several assumptions in your post which don't align with how things have gone down.

Democratization, sharing of information, and low barrier to entry are not dependent on something being free, and un-owned.

If someone steps up and produces it and sponsors it, it doesn't automatically take away the authenticity.

Because you personally wouldn't go to PodcampNYC, that was the sign that it was "over"? I don't get it.

eric - tell me what you think would be better to fix these no-shows.

podcamp has attendees, which means it needs facilities, which means it needs money, which it gets from sponsors, which means it needs to satisfy them.

THEN, when 1400 people register and 500 people show, someone needs to answer to sponsors to make sure they don't get a bad taste in their mouth, which would cause sponsors to lose interest/faith in podcamps, which would cause the organizers to be in the red.

solve this for me.

followup note: i think i agree that this isn't a *camp anymore though. unfortunately, podcamp follows in a line of unconferences which began with principles of no-cost attending, which means the ones that choose to charge are no longer doing.

tommy valier said something interesting in the car ride back though... take a DEPOSIT from people. take $50 from them for registration, and give it back when they show up... that fixes the problem.

@chef mark, no, not that it was 'over' but the strangeness of the inquiry about attending a regionally-named '-camp' made me start to think that something might be up.

@julie, btw, Tim's comment above 'welcome to the conference biz' sums it up. I don't deny things need to sustain. Of course they have to charge.... now. I think that's do to the relentless promotion and showcasing that appears to be present with audio media. Like the new radio (more similarities in culture). My half-assed PodcampXL idea was rooted in the notion (and I provided a solution) of truly local with no one importing themselves into the mix. That's where I feel it went astray. I'd go to Podcamp SF or mayyybe Podcamp LA.

If I wanted to promote the crap outta myself, I'd be flying to every single Podcamp. That's selfish and that takes away from the regionality, and well, don't we advertise to each other enough? :)

I agree on the deposit idea. The only way you're going to prevent no-shows is by asking for a non-trivial amount of money. $20 isn't going to do it, honestly. And the other point is that any amount that is enough to keep someone from no-showing, be it $20, $200, or $2000, is also enough to potentially keep them from attending in the first place, which is counter to the principles of PodCamp.

So yeah, take a deposit of $50 or even more, refundable upon attendance (or better yet, don't bill until after the conference, and only bill folks who don't show up). Triple that amount for people who want to present, similarly refundable, to prevent the sessions where the speakers no-showed. But the true goal should be to prevent people from not showing up, not penalizing the people who do show up.

@ericskiff Microsoft is just one local example, there has been amazing local support from AOL, Yahoo and others. Yes, offering up space could be construed as a vested interest. We could say the same about VON and all that.

And of course community will continue, it happened with Podshow it will/can happen here, too.

And seeing what happened with things like the Vloggies getting in what I believe to be cleverly ganked from the community.

Doesn't make it right, neither does not talking about it. If I'm the only person in the world who thinks this, then I'll wear a tinfoil hat. If I'm not, then I'll cook a roast with the foil instead. :)

I'm torn on this. I understand fully the need to have a more accurate headcount and presenters who show up. I like the idea of a refundable deposit. It takes more admin work but so would any other fee-based solution. The question of who gets the money and what happens to it needs to be addressed- if you charge only the credit cards of no-shows and donate that money it solves some of the issues.

Hopefully there will be more local PodCamps. I thought Philly was sized perfectly, Boston seemed almost too big based on the schedule I saw. Maybe it's time to turn the larger PodCamps into something else, especially with so many presentations that aren't specifically about podcasting. A broader social media conference? I'd pay for that. Heck, I'd help run it.

@eric - well, keeping in mind most people in this convo are podcasters or were, no wonder there's a kind of homogeneity of opinion.

can we come up with a better comparison than podshow, please? maybe PME? if it needs to turn into anything (which it does because of this change, a major one), it is much more likely to turn into PME than podshow. i think the podshow comparison is totally off-base (i'm on the inside of both after all).

PodcampXL was a good idea... very good, in fact. but flying in comes from excitement and can't be prevented. not a lot of people flew into Barcamp Nashville, which brought it closer to the idea you're talking about, but we can't prevent people going in to promote themselves and/or be involved in the community. besides which, sometimes, to get good speakers, people need to fly in. sorry.

and explain to me again why a community that lives far away from each other is inferior to one that lives close (entirely by coincidence, usually)?

I fail to see how charging a small amount of $ for something that is of enormous value is "penalizing" anyone in any way, whether it's there to cover actual real world costs or to prevent people not showing up, which throws a huge monkey wrench into the organization of an event.

Honestly, if charging people $20, $50 or even $100 to attend will PREVENT them from attending, whether out of hardship or a petulant adherence to some notion that $ is evil, is it likely that they will be an active generator of content anyway?

If someone were to offer me a free scholarship to Oxford, but I had to find a way to get there myself, I'm not going to complain that I'm being "penalized".

Let's be real, folks.

I really think it comes down to marketing. We have to do a better job of marketing Podcamp to the non tech, non podcasting crowd.

I suggest using the local Podcamps as the grassrootsy piece of a larger pie, and then inviting all of the best presenters from each to do Podcamp Boston every year. And it should have a cost associated with it.

Go local? Go Free. Go Big? You pay. If you want 1,500 people to show up for an event it better be an EVENT. Whether its a camp or a conference.

Have we emailed the no shows and asked them nicely why they didn't show up? That could help clear up some issues.

If they didn't show because they had a family obligation, then come on, nothing we can do. If someone didn't show because they felt they've "heard it all before", then there's an issue.

By the way, you do realize BarCamp is not required to be free?

http://barcamp.org/TheRulesOfBarCamp

Second followup: this was all discussed in the discussion on Saturday on "PodCamp retrospective and prospective: Where do we go from here?" - when the vast majority of participants in the room agreed that elimination the rule four REQUIREMENT was okay, that's when we made the decision.

Here's my thing.

The event isn't, and from what little I understand, never was FREE. In a way, no event ever is. It is subsidized by sponsors and by volunteer hours. You attend for free, because somebody else paid your way. Simple as that.

I think opening up the option for it to be a nominal fee, or a pay what you want, or some other locally-derived setup, and oriented largely towards keeping attendance expectations (and resulting volunteer hours) in line with reality, is 100% reasonable.

While anticipating an event that huge, the volunteer corps of organizers really had to bust their guts. Hard. Long hours, much stress. Value their time at a nominal rate of $10 or even $5 an hour, and you see that a very small group paid hundreds and thousands for the rest of us to have the event for free.

the idea for a small fee is the co-pay argument- the number of no-shows at the doctor's office goes down significantly (not to zero...) when people have some sort of investment in coming- and let's face it- we use money in this society to keep score. So invest and put your money where your mouth is.

Or we can become NPR and just bug you for donations the whole time and give away totebags with a donation over x amount.

As lead organizer of Podcamp Philly, my goal was to have an event to bring together the Philly community along with those who don't live here. Events were structured to highlight aspects of Philly along with the session content. We got tons of new people, and it felt local yet not just a meet up in someone's backyard, either.

I have helped organize four podcamps to date. Each has had its own challenges. Each has kept me up nights. But the people I have met through Podcamp are not local; they have enriched my lifes incredibly and have become good friends. Some have even come and stayed at my home, and are part of my extended family- no longer little faces in a box, but people I can call, email, or drop by and see when I am in town. And these are people that I would never have met or crossed paths with but for podcasting and podcamp.

When I saw the wild eyed enthusiasm of attendees at Podcamp Philly,how this experience taught and exposed them to so much more than they had found on their own through Google search or reading the few books available....It made me feel like some evagelical minister, bringing new converts n to the church of new media.

I remembered that feeling after my first podcamp. And that's why I have helped organize them- it's paying back for all that I have gotten, it's sharing and helping others, it's growing as a person and new media wonk, and it's engaging- using actions as well as words to change the world, one person at a time.

Some people do this from staying at home and pontificating. Others change things by converting ideas into actions. I am an action girl

Sounds like social media practitioners and experts discussing how to engage a known audience enough to get them to take a desired action. Hmmmm.

Those hallways at podcamp were enormous.
Every seat was not taken each presentation.

How about the organizers assume that next year 40%, or the number of your choice, will not show up and plan accordingly?

This is very common in the non-profit world, kid's birthday parties and even dinner parties where you have invited your friends. Check around with those that organize events of any kind professionally. This will be confirmed.

Trying to make people attend, or punish them for not attending seems an odd consideration.

Mr. Lawfer reminded us to research and know the audience.

This was my first podcamp. It was awesome. Friendly, informative, welcoming, creative and diverse. I wish that I could have attended more of the sessions, but they were running simultaneously. Adding "camping" to this would have really frustrated me with so many choices.

I will attend next year whether it is a camp or conference. I don't really care. You will all be there and that is what is important. At least I hope you will all be there.

Again a hearty thanks to all of those that made this possible. I guess that Laura's comment makes me feel a bit guilty, riding on the backs of the volunteers and all.

And remember, charging is an OPTION.

I don't have a democracy in my house. I run a friendly dictatorship. ;) Chris and Chris can do the same. Somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow, else we have anarchy. They have done a fine job, let them continue.

I smell haters.

The last few *camp events I attended, no one even bothered to check me off any sort of list. So they end up with it looking like I never attended. One wonders how much of this goes on.

That said, I'm certainly glad I didn't have to pay anything at the last few events. Were they social and informative? Sure. Worth a set dollar amount? Not so sure. Once you stick a dollar amount on it, or structure it around money in any way, you create expectations that you may not want to create, lest you harm the cause and effort even further.

The only thing that worries me is this - one of the core tenets of BarCamp - and the camps that have been spawned from that movement is: "Whoever shows up is exactly who should be there."

Now - I've hosted BarCamps that have had 10 people - and I've hosted BarCamps that have had over 1000 attendees - and each time they were exactly the right event for that community at that point in time.

I'm not concerned with the prospect of charging a nominal fee - I am concerned that we're counting too much on any one person or group of people to "show up" for an event in order for it to be a success.

If we go back to that first BarCamp in Palo Alto - what we see is that the folks who were the most revered - weren't as Tantek's says - the Luminaries - but were instead the people no one had ever heard of.

At the end of the day - an unconference is people with passion sharing ideas - and how important or famous they are in the community shouldn't matter.

I've come in a bit late into this conversation, but I thought I'd give my views too.

PodCampCapeTown happend a week ago on the 20th of October 2007 and believe me when I say that we tried our utmost to make it free to attened to the extent that we even wanted lunch to be free. The event was only for 1 day, btw. We did very well on that side, but there was no way that we were able to get sponsors to cover lunch for all attendees. I don't know if that broke rule #4 or not, but at the end of the day, that wasn't an issue at all and I didn't even think about it.

I was lucky that PodCampCapeTown was a very small event compared to Boston - 100 people vs 1300 people and when you organize an event that turns out the high triple to four digit numbers, surely something's gotta give. Sponsorhip is difficult to come by these days especially when corporates give you the "our annual budgets are in and we won't be able to give out another cent" type of excuse.

This is a very difficult situation and I would hate to see breakaway groups form because of this "breaking rule #4" issue.

We had nearly 115 people sign up for the event and during the course of the day, only 80 or so pitched. Besides the fact that it is rude not to pitch for an event you've signed up for, it does, I don't want to use the word "insult" here, sit in the mind of the organizers who have spent countless hours, days, months putting everything together in their own free time giving 100% to make this an event that everybody will enjoy.

With a good number of unconferences that have been held worldwide during the past few years, surely there is a pattern that runs based on registration vs actual attendence?

The PodCamp, BarCamp, etc unconference is not alone in this game, the GeekDinners fall into the same situation. 100 people register, 50 actually attend.

So basically we here in SA experience the same situations and I'm glad it was highlighted from Boston 2.

Yes, there are people who can't pay $20 or $50. People who live paycheck to paycheck (and may be in debt or were laid off or going through some other rough financial time).

That is why so many progressive events are either free or sliding scale (nobody turned away for lack of funds).

And yes, they can and do produce content. And even more would if they had access to the tools and training. And they have voices which should be heard.

I realize no shows are a problem, but it is best just to realize that will happen (and that not everyone can attend an entire event). And that there will be times when more people than you expect show up.

It amazes me that people see the removal of rule #4 as the end of PodCamp as we know it. The movement has been established, the momentum is there and the ethos is well documented.

The PodCamp community decides which events it will have and then makes them happen. Complaining about what could happen suggests that there the problem belongs to someone else. If you value the PodCamp we know, you need to take ownership of it and organize the events you want to be a part of.

@steve rhodes: dude, as if. the people who are flying in can afford 20 bucks. and the locals who can't afford it can get friends to pitch in.

neil gorman couldn't originally afford to come in, but we put together like 400 bucks to get him there. that was about 4 donations, afaik, so there's plenty of ways to get people who are broke to the event.

@steve rhodes, @julien: To Julien's point, there are some conferences that have offered scholarships that were well publicized and that very few people applied for. In one case, five scholarships were available, two people applied.

As Julien points out, there are many ways for the community to support and sustain itself. The trick is to be creative. More importantly, if you feel that a free event is necessary, grab a few folks and organize one in your area. Prove that PodCamp doesn't need to be for-fee even though it could be.

I don't get the anger over this decision. If you are podcasting, you have the $50 or whatever.. Let's not forget that we're in a luxury space here folks.. If you can afford to have the equipment to podcast, you're doing fine. If you can't eat because you're podcasting, there's a bigger issue than rule #4.

No shows like we saw this weekend are quite simply disrespectful to the people putting the event together and to those sponsoring it. Things can come up, but when it happens to 50% of the people, it means the process is broken, and needs to be fixed. You can't force people to act a certain way, but you can put things in place to mitigate their actions.

If a simple deposit or fee is used to assure that a chair someone brings into a room is used, I'm all for it - otherwise that person's (volunteered) time was wasted.

As I see it, we're lucky to have the content for free, having to cover infrastructure shouldn't upset anyone.

Folks who know us and have been through it know what it's about. Folks who haven't can say what they will. I sure know that I talk smack about things I don't know enough about.

That said, I dare someone to say to me that I don't love the community.

This is pure logistics and speaks to the fact that people who matter to me deserve the best experience we can provide.

That's all I have.

If you don't like the idea of a PodCamp that has some kind of commitment requirement, please, by all means, host a PodCamp in your area that is completely free. As long as it obeys the 6 rules, you can add back rule 7 to the event you will be organizing.

There's my dare. Go create a PodCamp. The reality is that 99% of the complainers (not here, but on the general interwebs) have zero initiative to get off their asses and DO something. Brogan and I -did- something about what didn't work for us with BarCamp.

If you don't do, don't organize, and don't even attend PodCamps, then sorry, your complaints are falling on deaf ears.

Maybe podcamp isn't meant to scale within the context of a single event. What's the problem with them being more manageable and more cosey gatherings (but remain free)?

Geoff

I know it's more than late to come here and post but I needed a long break after Podcamp Boston to come to this discussion and give it the attention it deserved.

Podcamp wasn't free. Podcamp was sponsored by companies and time by people who volunteered to step up. That time cost something to those of us who were expecting 1300 people and did the work accordingly to make sure that the weekend went as smoothly as possible.

I've never attend a BarCamp. This was my first Podcamp. Instead of just walking in and attending I saw the value of putting my time into something that I saw as good for my community. To help make that happen was rewarding and special to me.

And folks, let's face it, if you invite 1300 people you better be damn sure that you have enough space, etc. for 1300 people. As Whitney is fond of saying, it's like preparing for a wedding. All of those people may not attend but you have to prepare for them anyway.

That said, it's important to have some control in place that allows for better estimation of no shows. If that means charging a fee and then donating it or refunding it or whatever, I believe that's a hell of lot more sensible.

Chris and Chris aren't evil and aren't trying to make it hard for anyone to attend Podcamp, they are just trying to make it work for everyone. Sometimes that means changing the rules.